A Podcast Interview with Dr. Derek Gottlieb and Jason Wautier
Please check out my interview with Dr. Derek Gottlieb. I encourage you to also listen to my opponent’s interview, and the interviews created for Seat #2.
And on Spotify at:
Available on Apple at:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-referenda/id1754612543?i=1000691982164
A sample of transcript was provided from Apple as follows:
Hi, Wauwatosa neighbors. It’s School Board Thursday, and once again, I’m putting up two School Board member candidate interviews simultaneously. These candidates, Jason Wautier and Chris Merker, are both running for seat seven, the most unusual race we have this spring.
In the first place, Wautier is our only incumbent, sort of. When Jessica Willis stepped down from the board last spring, the board solicited applications according to established procedure and appointed Wautier to the seat. But as an appointment, he had to stand for actual election the next time one was held, which is, you know, this April.
And to make matters weirder still, the winner of this contest gets to fill the seat only for the remainder of the seat’s original term, which lasts only one more year. We have four seats up for election this year, and most of them are for a standard three-year term. But this seat, seat seven, is effectively a one-year term.
In the show notes, as always, I’m posting the standard set of questions that I asked each candidate, and I’m also including any links that they have sent me to their campaign websites, to Facebook pages, and so on, “where you can find more information about their candidacies. So please enjoy these conversations. This interview is with Jason Wautier.
Here we go.
Hi, Jason. It’s great to see you today. Could you take a couple of seconds and introduce yourself or reintroduce yourself to our neighbors here in TOSA?
Sure, Derek. My name is Jason Wautier. I’m a current board member for seat number seven on the TOSA School District, and I’m a West Tosan.
I’ve been here, I think, when my family moved here about nine years ago. We absolutely love it here, and I’m running to retain the last year on my seat, looking forward to it.
Excellent. Thanks. I will have already, before this episode airs, read some boilerplate to the effect of explaining the oddness of this election.
But there’s another thing that’s worth talking about here, is I’ve posted all of the questions that I’m going to ask you, and all the other candidates, those have been public for a little while. But because you’ve already served some time on the board, so to speak, these questions are aimed at people who have not served on the board. They have to be asked a little bit differently, or in somewhat additional ways for somebody who has a little bit of board experience.
So I’m going to, if it’s okay with you, ask the questions and also modify them, either at the front end or in a follow-up of one kind or another.
Yeah, that’s okay with me. I think that’s fair. I certainly want to provide reasons, and show for certain things, show what I’ve already done, where my experience already is there, but also several parts of your question, I do need to answer, like, what do I want for the future, and what do I see happening?
So yeah, let’s give it a shot.
All right. Thank you for your willingness. So could you talk a little bit about why you decided to run for a school board seat?
And with this caveat that you’ve been on the board for a while, I’m really asking about two different timeframes. One is right now, just like every other candidate, but also, why did you put your name forward this past summer to be appointed to the board when Jessica Willis stepped down?
Sure. So I guess, you know, I’ll use a cheesy catchphrase. I’ll say, you know, the reason I’m running is I’m planting seeds of change.
And I’ll give a little more detail as to why I really would like to finish out this term and why I got involved in the first place. I got to give a little context because there’s been some criticism directed towards me and for not having a child in the district. And in general, I’ve heard people say that they think that should actually be a requirement for people being on the board, having a child in the district.
And that was the case for me for many years, and it is not currently. I think it’s important for our voters to know why. So my wife and I decided to take our special needs daughter out of the Tulsa School District after she completed the sixth grade in 2023.
So it’s not too far back. I’m going to keep the nitty gritty of the details out of it, and I’ll just summarize by saying I was super frustrated with how her needs were being handled and addressed. So like any parent or anyone who really likes to want to put children first, we did something about it.
Mainly, we took her out of the district, and we enrolled her in a very small school. It’s specifically for kiddos with special needs. It’s out in East Troy doing this at our own expense, and it involves a whole lot of driving.
But I don’t regret it. It’s been almost two years now, and ultimately, it’s just been a better fit for her specific set of needs. And meeting her needs is really what matters most to me.
And also, I don’t want anyone to get the wrong impression. I don’t want to sound alarmist or turn people off to the district’s special needs teachers and the programs in place. They do phenomenal work.
“ lot of times, and I can speak both towards my past and also seeing it on the school board side, they’re doing it with limited resources, limited time, limited budget. They’re, they just need, they need more. So our family’s personal issue actually came more from the lack of behavioral support, if you will, and the overall, I think everyone would agree, or a lot of people would agree that there was just disorganization in the district around that time frame.
And, and really, you know, it, we did what we felt we had to do as parents. So, so that’s kind of what, where the, where the context is, and what gets me to, I guess, the answer to the question, a long way, a long way of getting there. But during the appointment process, it was, it was, I saw the post on Facebook, I started thinking about it.
And I had thought to myself, you know, we went through this. I wouldn’t, I don’t want anybody else, any other families to have to go through, through this. And, and that means, there’s a lot of different ways families could go through that.
“And so I just asked myself, you know, what would I want to see change? And what, what things would need to, to look like for the district and for, for, you know, my kiddo to, if at some point during her remaining school years, if she wanted to come back to the district, which would probably be in high school at some point, and I would definitely want to leave up to her. But, you know, for us as parents, I want to, I want to know that the option is there, and that’s what, that’s what I’m working towards.
So that’s, that’s what, that’s what got me to be engaged and put my name in there. And then once I became part of the board, that focus really, I mean, it hasn’t changed a whole lot. It’s just been refined down a little bit more.
As I’ve gotten into the nuts and bolts of what goes on, being a board member, really, I would, I would say the modified answer is, I look at it and say, well, what things have been done since we left, and what else could be done to support families to prevent any sort of recurring situations, or whether it be with behavioral, with special needs, with pretty much any situation that involves, you know, massive change or potential trauma? I feel, personally, I feel people with disabilities and the kiddos with special needs are often either misrepresented or underrepresented. The world’s a big place.
It’s not, we can’t all change everything at once. There’s always going to be conflict. There’s always going to be something that we can do better.
I want to put myself on a spot to serve the local community. And to me, this is where I can do the most good. So that’s where I’ll just say my reason was planting seeds of change.
And I guess the modified version is now watching some of them grow. Excellent.
Thank you for that response. What do you see as your role as a school board member in serving the district? What should a school board be?
And, you know, as an incumbent, I both want the answer to that question sort of directly. And I want to know whether you think that that’s changed since you took up your board seat initially.
Okay.
So I look at it kind of… So the two things kind of go hand in hand for me. Maybe I think I’ll break this up into just kind of what I think my responsibility is going kind of going forward.
And my responsibility going into this was more of a listen, learn, and try to pay attention, try to get ready for another term, try to learn all that’s going on. So I’ll talk about that maybe in the second half here. But so again, like you’ve already identified it, that my seat’s a little bit different.
“Regardless of who wins, there will be another election for Seat 7 in 2026. So regardless of who wins, if they want to continue on, they’re going to have to do this rodeo all over again. So, you know, with that being said, the weird seat there is kind of the outlier, but I want to focus in on the other three seats.
We’re guaranteed to see three brand new faces on a board of seven. That, to me, that the leadership part and experience that I bring and working with my team at my job and working with customers in the past, like large shifts in personnel and leadership like that can often lead to times of instability or can often make timelines just take a lot longer because we have so many people that have to get up to speed. And I know I have no doubt that every one of these candidates has been putting in the time and the work to try to get themselves up to speed as much as possible.
But speaking firsthand, there’s only so much you can do to prepare yourself. Once you get in there, it’s a little bit different. And “it’s a little bit overwhelming at first, but you got to just kind of roll with it.
I put in a ton of work in my appointment speech that I gave to the board. I had spent literally probably 40, 50 hours of my free time going through and watching and listening to the YouTube videos of the past board meetings and just seeing how much there was. Because there was a lot.
This board, in particular, has done a lot of work to bring the board and bring the school and bring the district and leadership all into alignment with the strategic plan. So there’s a lot going on, and I kind of came in at the tail end of a lot of that. And there were also other other big issues at play.
Literally, the next day after my appointment was the day that the announcement of the the budgeting error was released. I had no idea that that was coming. So and I don’t I don’t I think a lot of people didn’t know about it.
And it it was it it was and still is a big deal. It’s something we have we have to deal with and get figured out. But again, we just, I think, need to listen, learn and and do the work and we’ll get there.
We’ve Dr. Means has assembled, in my opinion, a very good team and and especially I give credit to Mr. Ecker and his his staff. They are doing, in my opinion, a phenomenal job of taking a really messy situation and reeling it in and turning it into something that is a lot more understandable for the rest of us. Recently appointed to the Finance and Resources Committee.
I’ve only been on a couple of meetings so far, so it’s literally fresh. But seeing what they’re doing and specifically, the last thing they did was really say that public facing dashboard to dig into school expenses, that is a huge resource that can answer a lot of people’s questions. And I hope regardless of who’s there, I hope that that kind of work continues.
Excellent. Well, that transitions us very well right into the next question, which is, can you talk about some of the big issues currently facing the district and your thoughts on how you’d like to see the district address them? Bonus points.
This is in the question. For speaking to what you see yourself doing as a board member to help make sure those issues are prioritized and the right solutions put in place.
Okay. Can I go for the bonus points first?
Yeah.
Okay. So, the bonus point, well, maybe you’ll award it, maybe you won’t, but the bonus point kind of plays back towards the previous question and my role of what does a board member do? And it goes back to my definition of it, a board member needs to represent the community values, put the community at the top of their list.
“Something I try to do actively. You’ve got to be able to take criticism and apply critical thinking. You’ve got to empower the right people.
A lot of people don’t know that the board’s only employee is the superintendent. That is the only person that we actually have any authority over and can give direction to. So providing that guidance and direction is key.
The new board will need to both evaluate the superintendent and evaluate the board as a whole and its effectiveness. So those are things that need to be done. And we need to answer the questions like a lot of the things that we don’t know yet.
And I don’t want to bring politics too much into this, but we’ve just seen a slew of presidential executive orders come in, and there are so many questions coming in about this. And no matter who is on the board, there is going to be possibly years of creating policy, adjusting our existing policy, and making sure everything’s in alignment so that the district complies legally with whatever is required by the federal government, but also does it in a way that upholds those community values. So hopefully that earned the bonus point.
And if not, okay.
I like that.
So going back to the original question, you know, the big issues, I’ll just, I’ll touch on two of them, because I don’t want, I don’t want to spend, I probably could spend the next hour and a half just talking about all the issues. I can grab my notebook over here from the board meetings. For every one we solve, there’s three or four more that come up.
But the big ones that, in my opinion, that I think the voters are going to care about, number one, it’s funding and the district finances, getting it back on track. I know that you know this and you’ve done several episodes about it, about the different ways the state funds and the negative tertiary aid and how certain funds are allocated for certain things, and we have to comply with that. And in my opinion, our state legislators have not done right by us when it comes to properly funding public education.
And the rest of the board agrees. We just recently passed a resolution to formally advocate to the state to reimburse the district on special ed. I mean, I know the answer to this.
Do you know the rough percentage that we currently get reimbursed from the state of Wisconsin for special ed?
I know what they set the percentage at, and I know that cost succeeded at last year, so I know that the real percentage is smaller. Is there a final number yet for last year?
It’s looking like it’s about 30 percent. So 30 percent of what we’ve put into special education has been given back to the district from the state. And I want to point out that TOSA as a community, in my opinion, they’ve always done what’s right.
We’ve put the money in year over year to provide education for special needs, to help those in the disabled community, to facilitate children that need IEPs. And it’s not just, IEPs are a much more broadly defined thing than they were when we first came into the district. It is not outliers that have them anymore.
There are a lot of kids that have them and need them. It helps their education. So we’ve done it for years, and the money has come from somewhere, either the general fund or other different sources.
And the digging into it that I’ve done so far, it’s that 30% number, it used to be higher. And the state used to reimburse at a much higher level but just because of inflation and them not making the necessary adjustments, really, they just, they fund at a lower level now. And I think we’ve hit that threshold where it’s kind of unacceptable.
They need to do more. They need to do the right thing. They need to take the strain off of our budget.
We, you know, if you think back, think back about the last, I don’t know, five, six, seven years, if we would have gotten reimbursed 50% for special education, we may not have a budget issue or be short on finances or be looking at things. That’s, you know, I want to look up to the next level of government and say, hey, that this, some of this stuff resides on you guys, and we need to advocate for that. And I think it’s really important that everyone knows that the last budget cycle in the state of Wisconsin, they had a multi-billion-dollar surplus.
What are we doing with that? What’s the best investment on that? And I would argue that education is almost always an answer to that.
And it makes me angry that we’re sitting here on this, and we could be doing good. It needs to change. The district and everyone on the board, unanimous vote, we’re advocating for 90 percent now.
Will we get 90 percent? Probably not, but we’re going to start high, and we’ll see where we end up. So that’s kind of, well, your terms are thing one and thing two, right?
Thing one, thing two, like, yeah. What are the big issues facing the district and your thoughts on how you’d like to see and address them? And I guess the second question would be like, do things look differently, different to you having spent time dealing with everything the board has to deal with, than they did to you as you were sort of seeking the appointment originally?
They look, they look very different. Going into it, it was more of a, I guess, a reality check of saying, this is, this was kind of my perception of what a board member does, and then getting into it and actually seeing, like, all the different layers and seeing all the different things that, and initiatives that have been put in motion, that for some of them, not even by the current board, by boards years past, the strategic plans that are being followed, and just the leadership in general, there’s so many levels of complexity there “that everyone needs to, everyone on the board needs to work together and navigate. For me, like, I look at and think about follow-up and accountability here.
That’s really, I think, the name of the game right now. Me coming into the board, there was a lot of things that were voted on. There was a lot of issues, a lot of heated issues.
And we, we as a board made some, made some decisions. Some people agree with them, some people don’t. But the decisions were made.
And now it’s time to both act on them and also hold everyone accountable and make sure that we do what needs to be done to close achievement gaps and to deliver on what, what this board has, has voted on and what the district and superintendent has, has promised. The things that we did were, in my mind, the big things were voting on the JK6 model. That puts sixth graders back in to the elementary schools.
Mr. Meyer on the board has, has given his account of, of why we even moved to a middle school model in the first place. You’ve done a whole episode on it. It’s really interesting stuff.
Anyone who hasn’t listened to that, that episode, which episode number is it? Do you know offhand?
I don’t know offhand. It’s, it’s six. It’s, it’s, it’s, the title is like, so what’s this about middle schools now?
All right. So the listeners can go and look at all the great content you have there. So they’re going to look for that.
I’m going to give you a shameless plug there. So it’s, it’s just, it’s a really interesting topic. And, and I think our society has changed to where we don’t, we don’t need that model anymore.
In fact, I think it, it takes away from what we could be doing. So the district now has to implement that. And that means different things like, like making, like drawing lines of who’s going to go where for, for sixth grade and, you know, the big question, what’s going to happen to secondary schools?
And the answer is, I, I don’t know. That’s, that’s not what the intent of, of the vote that we took is the, the intent and what, and what will be a big focus of this upcoming board will be to find out the answer to that question. And we want to get the, the community as involved as possible.
So I know there’s, I’m not involved in creating it right now, but there is Dr. Means and, and others are starting to put together what that, that community group is going to look like, and what kind of people they’re in different backgrounds and whatnot. They’re looking for to give contribution and ideas to. And I would encourage anyone who, who thinks that they can come to the table, bring the ideas, because this concept and in this point, and it’s a potential pivot point that could last decades.
So I think it’s a really important thing that we need everyone’s buy-in for. And then lastly, just want to touch on it. I’ve said it time and again to Dr. Means that STEM for All, we voted it, it has to be a win.
We are, and I don’t want to get into the politics of everything else that’s gone. So I’m going to leave that alone and just say that we are now on our abbreviated timeline to make sure that that is in place. And also, I found out last night that we are no longer calling it STEM for All.
And it’s actually, I think it’s a great thing. They decided to let it up to the kids. So the kids have rebranded it and renamed it Discovery Lab.
So that’s, I believe, how we’re going to refer to it going forward.
Good name. This is a follow-up. But good name.
Which kids rebranded it? Was it like a district-wide vote?
I don’t know the details on it. It was just mentioned at the board meeting last night. And I’m sure there’ll be some sort of official communication on it.
But it was set in the public forum. So it’s, yeah, it’s, I think it’s great. I think it, get the kids to get buy-in and you’re going to get better results.
So, in short, or I guess to kind of finish up my thought stream here on this is, I came into the board on the tail end of a lot of hot issues, STEM programs being one. I have a degree in engineering. I’ve owned a technology business twice, but plural.
I’m a software engineer. I’m a team leader. I’ve been doing this for years.
STEM is, it is vital, and I want to see this succeed. So, that, that is like probably my focus where, where, where I at least want my attention on at all times is, how are we doing on that? Where, where are we in the process?
Are we on track? So, I hope that answers the question.
Certainly. So, what do you see is our district’s greatest strengths that need to be maintained or built upon?
Okay. Well, I talked a lot on that last one. So, I’m going to keep this one a little shorter.
My answer to that is, it’s, it’s the community. And I, and I think, and hope that my previous answers have, have echoed that a little bit and or touched on it.
We’ve, we’ve seen it from, from all sides, from all age groups. People here in TOSA, they care about what happens here. I’ve lived in communities that didn’t.
“And again, even regardless of who you are, and what age group you’re in, whether you’re, you’re a parent or you’re a starting family looking to have kids, or your, your kids have gone off to college, or you’re, you’re, you’re now an empty nester, or you’re, you’re just looking, you know, or you’re single, or you’re, wherever you’re at, you’re part of the community. And, and I think that that diversity there gives us a lot of, a lot of strength. So what I’ve noticed is, is that no matter how heated the topic is, or, you know, or how big, or how little, or how much media attention we get, or how little it gets, my opinion is that Towson’s seem to, they always seem to kind of come back around to what’s best for our kids, what’s best for our community, we, things can kind of get, get out of control sometimes, I guess.
But somehow we always seem to bring it back together. I think, and I think our neighborhood is, we’ve got such a great mixture of families and peoples, and people and businesses. And I think everyone, at least everyone I’ve talked to about these issues, they’ve got a real sense of pride about our city.
I know, again, I know Dr. Means echoes it all the time in board meetings. We’re one of the 20 largest school districts in the state. Our city’s population doubles during the workday.
That’s how many people come in and are part of TOSA. TOSA is integral to the economy of Wisconsin. And other districts look to us for guidance, and they often wait for TOSA to take a stance or take the first step.
And then they follow. And that doesn’t just happen because of a board or because of one person. That happens because we’ve built that community reputation over years, and years and years, and every TOSA should take pride in that.
So that’s really the strength I see. If we lean into our community engagement, I think we’ll find that the community is going to help hold up the educational institution and everyone else around it. Excellent.
Thank you. The fifth question, I feel like we’ve talked about your personal strengths and background to a certain degree. The second half of that fifth question is, what issues or areas do you anticipate needing to learn more about in order to be the board member that you aspire to be?
And here’s another place where I would love to hear, both timelines, a current forward-looking view of what you anticipate needing to learn, and sort of a retrospective one. What did you not anticipate necessarily needing to learn about that you found yourself having to get up to speed on?
Sure. So I think my greatest strength is being able to work well with others, to focus on big-picture items, ask questions when I don’t understand something. I’m completely okay with knowing that I don’t have the answer to everything.
I’ve got to, if you don’t know, ask. And I try to apply critical thinking towards all of my decisions. And I embrace change.
I welcome it in my professional career. A lot of times as an engineer, you’ve got to ask the why. And you don’t always like the answers you hear back.
And one of the most red flag answers I hear quite often is, why are you doing X this way? And the answer is, well, because that’s the way we’ve always done it. And that is, when I hear that, I know that’s a red flag.
We need to get under the hood. We need to fix something, or we need to at least investigate. Maybe somebody or a certain group needs additional education or training, or a process has to change.
But really, the strength I’m really talking about is just part of the engineering process and the scientific method. So that, I think, is where I have a big strength. And I think I’ve shown that as well.
It’s kind of to talk about the second part of the question. I think I’ll kind of co-mingle a few of them together. It’s really hard to talk about what I did do and what I want to do because they kind of live together right now.
And, you know, I’ll position it like this. For whoever is on the board, there’s things that I think you should aspire to do and need to do. Some of them are absolutely necessary to do in order to be a board member.
Number one, you need to learn parliamentary procedure. Sounds really simple. It can often get confusing in the middle of a discussion when you’re trying to stop something or trying to get more time to follow up.
So, learn that. Learn how the public sessions need to follow certain protocols such as sticking to only the agenda topics. There’s been a couple of times where I’ve tried to ask questions because I wanted to get the answers in the moment, but I couldn’t because there wasn’t a way for me to tie that question in with something on the agenda.
We’ve got to try to remember what board members have the power to change and weigh in on and what they can’t. You know, it’s, I like to say, it’s usually not as much as anyone initially thinks. I think I’ve said it earlier.
Remember that the board has one employee, superintendent. Right now, that’s Dr. Means. It doesn’t matter what board, what timeline.
That is how we operate. The board needs to collectively give guidance to that superintendent, empower them, and let them take action. And if the board doesn’t like the action being taken, they get, they need to get involved.
And knowing that that is at its core, what you’re there to do, is super important. I think this is something I’ve gone through time and time again. You need to be able to know the responsibilities of the district and the people and who does what, and be ready to relearn things.
It’s nothing static, especially in today’s 24-hour news cycle kind of world. It’s going to happen. You need to be okay with relearning things.
Another important thing, take criticism with grace, and believe me, there’s going to be a lot of it. You can’t always please everybody. In fact, it’s very often never the case that you can please everybody.
Do what you will with the facts and make the information presented. Make your decisions based on doing the most good for the most children. Have patience.
Listen to your fellow board members. Even if you don’t agree on the topic, healthy discussion can always lead to compromise and some sort of path forward. And to me, that’s what leadership is about.
It’s navigating the larger group from point A to point B to point C and so forth. And then lastly, learn… And this was hard for me because it’s always been hard for me to do this, but learn to trust in the power of delegation.
Superintendent is responsible for building the team and getting the board to the destination. And I have a sappy little… Or not sappy.
I have a little, I guess, parable or… I don’t know what the right word is. A comparison that I came up with that I’d like to give.
That’s all right. Okay, so this whole thing of being a board member it’s kind of like getting on an airplane. When those cabin doors close, you are empowering the pilot, the staff, the ground crew.
You believe that they’re going to get you to your destination. Are there going to be delays? Maybe.
Will there be times where you’re uncomfortable? Probably, almost certainly. Will there be turbulence?
Pretty much always going to be a little bit. Will your bags arrive on time? My experience is, I’ll just say, it’s gotten better.
It’s never been great. But either way, the odds are, your bags are going to get there, and you’re going to end up in the right place. You’ll have made it to your destination.
So the key takeaway here is, through that whole journey, you put your trust in your family’s lives into your trust of that pilot and the staff. You’ve stated where you want to go, and you know that for, at least for a little while, you simply no longer have control. You’ve got to put your faith in those trained and who are skilled to take all those small steps in between.
And that’s a lot like being a board member. We’ve got to figure out and know and decide where we want to go, and then we have to trust the process to get us there.
Thanks for that. Last question is, what haven’t I asked you about that would help voters understand what matters to you and what you’d bring to this office?
OK, so, you know, at least I feel like I’ve talked your ear off and my voice is starting to go on me. And again, I really appreciate the opportunity for a platform to speak. I know the written word doesn’t always come across with proper context or emotion.
And before I answer that, I also want to say thank you to those who have stepped up in the last week or so to volunteer your time and your expertise and to help me with campaigning. I appreciate you all so much. A lot of my time that’s available is going towards continuing to do the job at hand.
I’ve got six and a half weeks or so. And of doing the actual board work while doing the campaign. So that said, the answer that I’ll give to the question is I want to see a focus more on mental health.
It matters so much. It goes hand in hand with education. We need to remove stigma from it, promoting social, emotional based learning when possible.
“Let’s play to our children’s strengths, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. We all know COVID did a ton of damage. It caused so much trauma.
Our kids need our understanding right now. They need our patience. They need our help navigating this increasingly complex society.
It’s not going to get any easier. We need to educate with that in mind, but with that, we need more than ever for all of us adults to step up. We need to show our compassion, embrace our empathy, remind our kids that showing emotion is not showing weakness.
It’s showing strength. Remember that our efforts need to be driven from the place of giving every kid a quality education, while teaching them to be a whole person. And lastly, it’s part of my campaign tagline, so I’ll work it in.
We need to work together. So thank you so much, Derek.
Thank you, Jason. This has been wonderful. I look forward to sharing this with our neighbors.”
From The Referenda: 25. Jason Wautier candidate interview [TOSA], Feb 13, 2025
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-referenda/id1754612543?i=1000691982164&r=2679
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